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HomeMy WebLinkAboutcc min 1975/05/21 CONFERENCE TELEPHONE CALL WITH GRUEN GRUEN + ASSOCIATES RE South Ba~; Court TRANSCRIPT OF A COUNCIL CONFERENCE HELD WEDNESDAY, MAY 21, 1975 Dr. Gruen In.relation to the Third and H Street site or placing the facilities in your Civic Center, there are factors to consider not only in having to deal with the County., but also in terms of traffic problems. There may be more advantageous places to put the Courthouse complex than on that site. For example, I think earlier we talked about moving it out so that it could link more easily in terms of transportation to your own Civic Center complex so putting the Courthouse there (in our Civic Center) is not all plus. The nature of the pluses and minuses are a little hard to tell, at least looking at what we're talking about in terms of land value plus demolition. Obviously, we don't want to create a situation where we jam all kinds of court-related traffic onto Third Avenue. I'm saying that it isn't an obvious cost and benefit answer even for the Courthouse, but there is another benefit .. of the Third"and~H~ site Which, as I see it, it sort of becomes a clean border to the downtown. And then, I think, through zoning and other methods, you want to be sure you are not faced with a conglomeration beginning to build on the other side of Third and H so that we what we have done is spread the growth potential and create more sprawl. I think, at all costs, we want to keep the growth concentrated~ Sou know, we don't want it to spread all the way up and down Third. Assuming we can do that, the Courthouse on that site would have the advantage of taking that side out of consideration as a competitor for specialty shopping within the rest of Third Street. The advantage of having the Courthouse there that you do not have anywhere else is that it precludes the use of Third and H as a source of competition to attract specialty stores out of the existing Ihird Avenue complex. Our strategy is to get an increase of specialty operation in there. So my first question is - when you talk about things like a chain drug - to what degree can ~e predict now the usage of that site for what I could call "complementary" uses to specialty, but not competing uses? In other words, to what degree, if you say you don't have the Courthouse there - can we be assured, if at all, that what we are talking about is a large drug store, super drugs, convenience goods - do you have any feel for that? Desrochers Well, a grocery chain is definitely trying to get out of their Third Avenue location and they are trying to lure, from what I understand, a chain drug into the area too, and that is what I understand would go at Third and H, then some specialty stores to link the two. That's the kicker - and I don't know what type of, or other stores such as dress shops and cleaners and .... Mrs. Gruen If it's more service like cleaners, doughnut shop and a laundromat, that's one thing .... Dr. Gruen That's right - is there any way we can talk to them about the mix of uses. In other words, if we are talking about something that is a 20,000 sq. ft. grocery, maybe a 10,000 sq. ft. drug store and another 5,000 or lO,O00 sq. ft. of cleaners, barber shops, shoe repair and the kind of uses that are essential .... Desro~hers They are talking pretty large - I think .... Dr. Gruen ... the things that people go to as a matter of convenience but do n~t tend to go to in order to really comparison shop and parking is heavy. To that degree I would see no inherent advantage to it but to the degree that we begin to fill out by moving Standlee up there or, heaven forbid, having Glenn's Market up there, I think we are talking about a situation where the opportunity costs of not using the Courthouse to preclude that begin to climb .... Councilman Hyde Do you feel that the Courthouse at Third and H would be harmful to the core of the Third Avenue area? Dr. Gruen Oh, definitely not. That's an easy answer. The only question is, is it as helpful there as it would be if we could tie it better to your own Civic Center. Mrs. Gruen It can't be harmful - it may not be as helpful. Councilman Hyde In other words, Third Avenue would not get as much benefit from it, but it isn't going to hurt it? Right? Dr. Gruen Right. I would even say you could see where it is as much benefit and I am really thinking about the City as a whole. I am thinking, for example, of your own Civic Center and the ability to tie things together - the ability, for example, to put parking behind Third Avenue so that we could get more joint parking use between you and the Courthouse. I don't think there is any question but .that, in this regard, it wouldn't be a plus on Third and H. ~he only thing is that if you were to say to me the choice is between housing at Third and H or a convenience center and the Courthouse, than I would say let's just look at whether or not, for one thing, it is cheaper for the City to put the Courthouse somewhere else. But if you are afraid that putting the Courthouse at Third and H would hurt the downtown, I have no fear of that at all. I mean, if we do any kind of good planning at all, we have to be sure that we don't create a traffic congestion problem, but if we can handle that problem - no, I don't have any qualms at all that it would hurt Third Avenue - it would not. Councilman Scott That area has 13 acres and it seems to me you are looking at some- thing more than a convenience shopping center in the normal sense that we look at them where you have a drug store, a grocery store, then you have your little shops - a pizza parlor, laundromat, etc.- seems to me the very nature, because of the size, that you would have to have some other types of businesses. Do you agree? Dr. Gruen Yes - I think that is the primary concern that when you are looking at that much land - if I were a developer what I would say is "Okay, sure I'll get a chain grovery, because they are a nice Triple-A credit and they~are going to help me get my loan", and the same is true with a chain drug. Mrs. Gruen We've got to get a dime store or something - you like that if try to go to a junior department store or some kind of clothing store or a dime store and then tur~l it into not a convenience center or specialty center, but a co~unity center -- that is probably what yo~would do with it if you were a developer. Councilman Scott Yes, would that type be detrimental to the Third and H site? Mrs. Gruen I think it will be detrimental - I think it definitely will be. Dr ~ruen: Yes, because you are talking about close to 565,000 square feet of space and that means you could easily put in 120,000 square feet of stores and still have a pretty good parking relationship, roughly - you would have to take a look at what the traffic pattern is - - you hit right where my concern is - if you have 120,000 square feet of shops there and you have the grocery store say 20,000 square feet and you have other kinds of obvious convenience stores taking another 30,000 then what you are. talking about potentially is something about 50,000 and 70,000 square feet of shops that will compete directly with Third Avenue and since that development would have the advantage of being able to be put together as one package, one deal, I can see where a developer could say "what is my best source of gettin~ tenants?"; well, it's always the same thing - you start off by looking at the guys around you and offering to bring them in and I could walk down Third Avenue and so could you and you could pick out the kind of stores that you'd want to put there, which could create a situation where Third Avenue begins to dwindle and the shopping concentrates on Third and ~, and so I don't know any way to prevent that if the Third and H develop- ment moves that way. I think you hit it right on the head -- that is my number one concern and that's why moving the court- house there has the advantage of not just benefiting as a court- house, but of precluding just exactly what you have said. Councilman Hyde Dr. Gruen, adjacent to Memorial Park there is some commercial property which is in bad need of redevelopment. Can you see that as a complex of high density R-3 with commercial office facilities in conjunction with it as a planned development paralleling our park? Dr. Gruen: Yes, I think that's fine except if you have all the action at Third and H - if that became the big new specialty center, then it is going to be hard to make any of these other things work because everyone will want to be as close as they can be or even within the Third and H development. Mrs. Gruen If, in fact, you put your South Bay courts at Third.and H, then what you're doing on the other side is very good because you could then have your restaurant and commercial in between the t~o, and this would .make a great deal of sense - you would tie Third and H almost down to your Civic Center. Dr. Gruen It would create a situation where when the work forces - and I understand ~,~hen it is in full' staffing we are talking about roughly 700 people in the County building - that would sort of get a natural pattern and when people went to lunch - when they left they would move toward the Third Avenue area to eat their lunch, do their shopping and in some cases, as you say, even be interested in housing. The same way for attorneys and the other' kind of service things that want to be near a courthouse, they will want to be right in where their people can have shopping opportunities and still be close to the courthouse so that is why, in the absence of any.., if our only choice is between the Third and H as a courthouse or as a kind of a development that Mr. Scott just pointed out, I think the answer is that we would be better off as a courthouse. Mrs. Green I don't even think it's a close decision if you are still wanting to develop Third Avenue. Councilman Egdahl Would you consider bail bondsman as a specialty shop? Don Lindberg ... but as a necessity shop. Dr. Gruen Maybe we could pass a law that says bail bondsmen have to be above first floor. Councilman Scott ...or perhaps underground. Dr. Gruen I am serious; you are going to have those uses and I think we ~should anticipate them through zoning that precludes the kind 5f development along Third Avenue that would keep it from being interesting shopping area. I would even have the same feeling about too many banks - I think we've got to work to make it an interestin§ area that people ~ill want to walk along and shop and I think it has that potential~ but once they get into a Third and H specialty shopping area, I just don't think we're going to have any luck in getting them to leave their car there and walk elsewhere -- I think they will park, do their shopping, get back in their car and drive away. Councilman Scott Dr Gruen, Councilman Hyde brought up the fact in regard to what you are saying about the Chula Vista Civic Center complex and the court complex could actually be anchors of the specialty Do view it that way? area. you Dr. Gruen I do, except that while they -- I don't know if "anchor" is the... it's a little bit of a misnomer - I think that they become a damned goOdgenerator of customers for the shopping area, but when ! think of anchors I think of an attraction and I don't think that a court- house complex is a strong enough attraction to compete with a specialty shopping center -- ! think we'll have the same kind of situation that we have in other areas where - San Jose is sort of a grim example - you've got a big city complex away from the down- town and what people do - and there hasn't been a development of shopping around the Civic Cente?- what happens is people go to the Civic Center, then they get in their car and they don't go downtown - they go to the suburban areas to do their specialty shopping~ so I don't think it's a strong enough anchor even though it's a plus. I think the anchor essentially has to be restaurants and specialty shops and if we're going to get those restaurant and specialty shops on Third and H, then we don't have an anchor on the rest of Third Avenue. Mrs. Gruen It's not an anchor as much as it provides a marker -- it provides two kinds of markets - it provides a market for the commercial and restaurant and it could provide a market for the auxiliary offices so I think it is best to look at it as a potential market rather than as an anchor - as an attraction. Dr. Gruen Right, because very fev~ people are going to be combining shopping trips with trips to the courthouse. In other words, when I go in to -- I just served jury duty and you know I went in, I sat on the jury and t left. ttowever, tha people, the clerks, the judges and the people who work in the courthouse, they, when they eat lunch and~what have you -- would serve as a market for a nearby shopping area, if that makes sense. Councilman Egdahl The present shopping center - Chula Vista Shopping Center - on H Street between Fifth and Broadway,' would be about equidistant from the Third and H Courthouse site - if that should be the Courthouse as the Third Avenue business area. Would you see that having some effect on impact because of the equidistance in drawing people away from Third Avenue? Mrs. Gruen I think it will, providing Third Avenue doesn't do anything differen% than it is doing today. That's why I am so terribly concerned - and I keep repeating it - of the importance of good and more than one decent restaurant in the area. This is back to 4 or 5 restaurants. This ~ill be the restaurants that are involved in this and once they are there, they will do other things and this is where I think you're going to have to compete. These people who work at the courts only have an hour off for lunch or they are going to run after their doughnut in the evening. Now what you've got to do is be sure that you capture them on Third Avenue during the lunch hour. They could probably go several evenings a week to the shopping center. Dr. Gruen Bit it is a different kind of trip. ! think that.., like ... it is a generator as opposed to an anchor. Like any generator, when people go there, they'll know the center and I'think the center will probably pick up some business - I'm talking about the existing Chula Vista shopping center. But I don't see it all as a kind of situation you have with what I construe Third Avenue could become, which is really a place where they go for their lunch and they go for pick up shopping. A shopping center just isn't that - you'can look at the hours that they're busy as it stands. Frequently, for example, Saturday will be a big day, evenings will be very big at the shopping center because people will bring their families to shop there. Third .Avenue is just a different kind of animal. It will help folks, but I guess I just don't really see Third Avenue and the Chula Vista shopping center in competition, either now or in the future. Lane Cole Thank you, Dr. Gruen, I think we're finished. Dr~ Gruen: Can you just let me know what you think - what's going to happen next? Councilman Scott We're under time pressure as you are well aware and we are competing for the court complex. Dr. Gruen Has another city come in and suggested that they will work with the County? Councilman Scott Yes, National City has. Dr. Gruen Has the County itself expressed itself as having any preference for the kind of location, or are they just price-oriented? Councilman Scott Well, they've pretty well said Chula Vista. Dr. Gruen Oh, good. CounCilman Hyde But now we're torn between basically the two sites - at Third and H and the one adjacent to our I, lemorial Park, which would be closer to the downtown business area. Councilman Egdahl (The Third and H Site) ... which have some pressing activity about development pending. Councilman Hyde There's a fire under each one of those sites and we've got to make up our own minds which one we want to support. Councilman Scott So we are under title pressure by both development and by competitive factors. Mrs. Gruen I think you are doing well to make a decision of this importance. Dr. Gruen ! think with those choices, certainly there seems like there's no reason for not going ahead with the Third and H site and at least, since whatever site you pick, it's going to have to be studied in terms of the way you can use tax increment, that we're just 9oing to do some numbers on how much of an increment is there and what would the cost be and, since we're going to have to look at the traffic, if you start doing that on Third and H and that works out, I just don't believe we could make nearly as big a mistake as having it at the other site and then having the danger that Third and H would develop into direct competition with Third Avenue upgrading potential. Everybody said, "Thank~ again ... thanks very much," etc.