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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1963-12-19 PC MINS SPECIAL MEETING OF THE PLANNING CCM41SSICN OF THE CITY OF CHULA VISTA j December 19, 19.63 A special meeting of the Planning Commission of the City of Chula Vista was held at the Chula Vista Junior High School Auditorium at 7:30 P.M. on Thursday, December 199 1963. The purpose of this meeting was to receive comments and criticism of the Sketch Plan. Members present were: Stewart, Comstock, Johnson, W111 hate, Adams and Guyer. Absent : Member Stevenson. Also present were: Acting Planning Director Warren„ Consultants Sydney Williams, Corwin Moeine, and Kenneth Millard. In the absence of' Chairman Stevenson, Vice—Chairman Stewart presided over the meeting. Vice—Chairman Stewart open-id the meeting welcoming, the Consultants and the public to the second Sketch Plan Meeting. The following is a transcript of a tape recording. Portions may be summarization of what was said during the changing of tapes . Mr. Sydney Williams : The previous meeting, we discussed at some length, the economic base, the population study, that serves as background for preparation of the plan. It might be important tonight to remind you of some of the key characteristics of Chula Vista, viewed objectively in relation to other communities, in preparation of a sound, general plan for Chula Vista. One of the characteristics is the rapid growth; tripling the population over decades. Growth which of course is displayed by now to a very large extent to previous agricultural base and substitutiRd an Industrial base underneath for other types of employment. In con— trast to many communities you are a relatively youthful community, young in age group; you are a generally attractive community, with a relatively high quality of development of all types in all parts of the city. You do, however, have problems . Some of them are shared with other parts of the San Diego Metropolitan area, typical of the San Diego Metropolitan area, others perhaps more unique to Chula Vista. One of the chief problems of which you are all aware is the very heavy dependence on single industry and problems that result from decrease of employment in this industry. It appears that. you have had an over building of commercial development related to the present market available by this, we refer to the scattered or strung out commercial developments, rather than your new shopping center. One of the pro— blems we have to cope with, however, is that this shopping center, although it has attracted more business to Chula Vista, has at the same time, brought problems to the older shopping areas, specifically the Third Avenue Business District. You have an asset in the reserve or eMpansion and we now are in a decade where democratic process of Planning can exercise a reasonable degree of control over development for seeing to it that development in these expansion areas wiil be developed with a high quality. The sketch Plan is based on principles, which in turn are based on the 2 the suggestions of people .in your own government and more particularly the wort; of the Citizens committees who studied for a period of six to eight months the goals and objectives for future development for Chula Vista . Some of these will be familiar, perhaps even obvious, in relation to your, own knowledge of the community. Perhaps some of them will not . First, is Improving and eOpanding the economic base; not merely in- creasing the amount of industrial development but attempting to insure that it is diversified in .type. Equally important, maximizing your potential for commerciai ' development. You are very fortunate compared to many communities , to having a well-planned, modern shopping center located within your own City limits. The second and perhaps the most important drawing, economic activities in the United States is the exploitation, to the utmost, the tourist potential in proximity to beaches, to Mexico, the elimateg Industry alone is not necessarily the .foundation for economy. Industry related to a singie' branch-governmental activity is one of the problematical types of support for economic base. Legislative decision on the high level can seriously alter structure. Third, this is important to improving your economic base, is ' to pre- serve and enhance the residential quality of your community. Establish the type of standards that will result in high quality development, both single and multi -family developments. Preserve the sound areas of development that you have. As we mentioned, you have an unusually high standard-type of development, on the average, by and large, in Chula Vista . Promote the orderly expansion of multiple housing in appropriate areas. My partner will discuss .the ways and location in which this may be done. To avoid the degree of economic segregation of either type of housing or the economic type of housing &F- sAkM. so these become two Chula Vistas; East Chula-Vista which Is ,a nice place to live, like west Los Angeles, west Chula Vista which is something else. This means doing the most for all, parts of - the community. The next is to annex .the east which is extremely important to you in this community so that you can exercise planned control over your own logical boundaries. Annexation is something that must proceed oqr development as it occurs in your planning area . Again, and this is again related to your economic base; attraction of economic activities, in attraction to industry, is a high standard public facility. In the research we found that the community has been willing to spend money to maintain a high .q,uality public service, both current'. funds and bond funds. Bring -neighborhood and community recreation areas , up to accepted standards ; providing large parks in areas where they are appropriate and to the extent that they are needed; provide for water-oriented recreational uses for at least a part of your waterfront. Continuing to develop and improve your Civic Center as a focus for the community and" service center, and perhaps' a cultural center as well. You .,have a long range problem of storm drainage for which a'' study is being made in connection with the current planning program. ' Encouraging development of the College as a major community cultural and educational center . I think you are fortunate in that the .College. is located here . The employment in College generates a substantial amount of employment within Chula Vista itself. Develop a circulation system within the city and linkages to the region and to Mexico which will tie in with your pattern of local thoroughfares and interfere as little as possible with good land developments . This means, for example, that the thoroughfares w11 .1 not, like the old one's, be stripped .with ribbon commercial developments . Basically, a network pat•t-ern of . thoroughfares . starts with the freeways, beginning to be. pretty . well set down by local speed action . Within this outer network of access lirhi:ted freeways , good internal circulation, primary, secondary thorough— fare,'ss good highways , rails and presumably water service in your tidelands and ,i.ndustrial areas . Fifth, preserving and enhancing the beauty of your community. You have assets and topography, the bay trees remaining from former agriculture dev¢ lopment; street tree planting program. These things need to be protected and enhanced and in their way contribute a great deal to your mosf serious problem — the need for expansion of your economic base. . Such. things as providing for appropriate attractive development of shore lines , control.s to avoid unnecessary scarring and grading in the develop— ment - of the eastern area . Continuous attention to street t'r'ees ; planting public areas enehancement of those outer areas; of the pulleys or gorges which are not, in themselves , suitable for development; of the reserviors and other natural regions . Encouragement and protection of crop and orchard uses wherever and 'as long as economically feasible is not only sound economic, but has a lot to do-.,with the aethestie quality of the community itself. This means areas in sound agricultural use to be preserved in so far as possible in large blocks of hundreds of acres, not interspersed with scattered developments. The Sketch Plan is a preliminary draft of what would be your adopted general plan; this is for your review for discussion and criticism. We are entering now a turn in the times of the production phase which will lead us up to the final stage. Mr. Corwin Mocine I ,.want to explain in some detail the major provisions of this plan and how these relate to those more general objectives Mr. Williams has gone over with you. We think of plans as having two or three major - pro— ponents or elements and these are normally thought of as land use. Then the circulation system, consisting principally of streets, some ped— estrian ways and railroads' that link all this together and make it work . Finally, the public facilities and services , schools and parks , civic center and playgrounds, and all things necessary to provide a complete community. This is the framework - to discuss these things . Because of the emphasis we put on the econ$mic base, it would be appropriate to start with the industrial park land. Shown on the map in two categories, a colored light blue and dark blue; dark blue representing heavy industry and light blue the light industry, to which are combined research fac— ilities , warehousing, and related sort of things . We have shown all the waterfront area as industrial and most as heavy industry; tried to be realistic in refiectinn : the Sante Fe railroad' s plans for this area, since 4 this Is their land and they have announced their plans for developing . it which will be essentially warehousing and similar activities which will maximize the use of their railroads . W¢ have shown, particularly In the Otay Valley, an area which we have labeled., " Industrial Reserve." IJ is important to .emphasiz.e that this plan shows approximately 2000 acres of land in industry not counting the Bands 'in reserve. This is in comparison to less than 500 acres which is actually occupied by industry -today. Taking in . terms of acreage, there is room f'or between . 4 and 5 times an increase in industrial development. Another ,way to look at it would be to relate industrial land to future po�p.ulation. of the community and fo the number of industrial jobs, which the community -might be expected to provide adequate jobs for its residents . We have forecast for 1990 a populationof approx-imat¢ ly 160.,000 people in Chula Vista counting the new areas which will essentially be a new town to the east . We have assumed that . 35% -of. that population will be in the working force and that 25% of . the working .force will . be industrial workers-, This gives us an industrial employmentof about 14,000 people. This eom- pares with 5000 people .working today or 3 times the number of people in industrial employmen't•.` The reason that the . land forecast is at a slightly higher rate than the employment forecast is that we. expecti based on experience up and down the State 9 thatihe -density of employ— meet per acre of. industrial land will be somewhat less . The Rohr aircraft wh'i.ch represents the bulk of the industrial employment in Chula Vista has a remarkably high'. ,industrial 'employment density. This tends to throw the ratio. out some. The tendancy in industrial .employment is to spread .out within single family plants over large- areas set -aside for areas of landscaping and .offstreet, parking etc. tends to mean that. to employ the same amount of people in the future there will 'need to be more acres . We,, have tried to. provide land, as related to water, to -railroads , to freeway systems, land on the waterfront, land extending back to the - va l leys.. lands on both s ides' of the commun-i ty extending out to the community' eomplex makes 'this a wide development of industrial - develop— ment. If this land can be reserved and . programmed into industriai , use, th.i.s will make a sound industrial base. The problem i.n our mind is whether the absorption rate of land between now qnd 1990 for industry w'i. II substantially use up the even , as much as halfg. We have tried to provide a bargin of safety in at least 1.00%, as in our estimates, you will find the need for about . 700 acres of land; we have provided b¢tween 1500 and 2000 acres. The real problem here will 'be to pre— vent development from being scattered throughout the whole area$ to the detriment of the agriculturaluse of, land and which remains an important part of the economic base and also requiring inefficient an'd illogical extension of . utilities, etc. The Plan emphasizes . the need to program the use of' this industrial fand . which is being reserved in such a way that it comes - in to us¢ it 'in an orderly way instrume' n.taily, now and not just . scattered .all over the area . 5 The second job—producer in the community is, commercial activity. Here we have suggested two or three different categories of commercial. activities and treated in a somewhat different way. . .The most import— . ant, of course, if the general commercial retail development, and there are three centers of that; Sweetwater Valley, in and around the Uni— mart center; the historic and commercial center on Third Avenue.. and the new Chula Vista shopping center-9 where Marston ' s is the princip -,J,- store at the momenta These three centers , acreage wise are more than enough to provide the kinds of uses that one looks for in a shopping center for the population which has been forecast 'for this .community.. The establishment of this center is already beginning to impose problems and before we are finished wi.th this program, we are required to work on special plans for the Third Avenue area which we hope can suggest ways .-which the center can cope with its new problems. Pro— bably to some extent, to changing some of its activities from princi— pally a retail center to a center giving more emphasis to office an'd service activity, specializing in retail that one doesntt ordinarily find in a shopping center and such uses as that which hopefully -will be - able to keep that as a vital and important center in the community even though it will not necessarily be able to compete as a retail center with either of these other- two. shopping centers . One other major retail center which is worth official mention, I thinks, is the proposed 'new center in the eastern part of the community which we have suggested as being related to the Southwestern College sites high school si't'e.,. elementary school site., park center, ' etcv As all of you ar-e aware, it is bare hills 'at the moment; almost nothing ex— ists there— a scattered farm house or two and a little development of some of the. canyonsin the Bonita Area ; other than that it is vacant land. In the ' next 20 years ., we believe it will largely come Into the valley. Our study of the whole San Diego area , the stragetic location of this, the new freeway access which it w.il'l have.. makes its location second to none all seem to indicate that this- is a logical . development . But development of this magnitude needsfo have some kind of feeling of assent, something around which can be o'r.ganizedp something ,wh.ich will provide the major needs of the people who live out there, and it looks t.o us that the college provides the vent of focus for that kind of nucleus . The college, itself, can provide- a market for the shopping center, the shopping center can provide a service for students . The fact that there will be a center there that the college will provide various cultural and educational opport— unities are easily available. than in . other parts of the metropolitan area should bring a substantial population. I won' t try to talk about all of these smaller neighborhood centers showing on the map existing and proposed, more or less in proportion to the population. density in such a way that everyone will find. day to day shopping facilities wi.thin . a reasonable distance. A second category of commercial is this cross—hatched- area and we have combined thoroughfare and office uses. This plan is somewhat of a simplification of th.e general plan which. will be delivered to you at the end of our work, and we have in some cases with this plan com— bined various categories which we will separate out in more detail in the final document . We are trying to work on some main ideas and to solicit from all of you r@'sponse which will help us make the final decision. Regarding the Br.oadwa'y .areas this does not neees'sarily 6 represent our best judgment as to how these types of commercial services should be provided; however, it seems to us that Broadway is so committed throughout most of its length to this kind of use that it would be meaningless for us. to suggest that it' s going- to disappear and something else should happen. We don4t know what kind of machinery might be used to make those changes; we don ' t se¢ any such machinery in the offering. We therefore think the only thing to do is to recognize ' this in ' the Plan and .then fo try to . accomodate it as best we can with proper zoning controls , require— ments for parking, control ; of signs and the like. We have simply . suggested that such commercial as,, office uses would also - extend southerly on the Third Avenue center, and along the fronfage 'on' Third Avenue which has to some extent been committed to commercial uses, but not to the same degree as Broadway has. A third category of use is shown in this pink—purplish area and you will see it located in stragetic places in relationship to 'the free— way system as well as here .on the waterfront and this is- mean to suggest tourist—oriented commercial activities. This would mean motels, restaurants , perhaps some ift shops and that sort of thing.. , sales and service .facilities, gas stations and the .things which tend to serve the tourist. And we have related those to . the principal freeways thinking that most of these freeways ultimately being more scenic than this one, and this one will probably ultimately take on the function of an Industrial Freeway, and the tourist traffic will - find its way to the other . freeways .- Now this brings us down to the residential recommendation of the Plan, and residents in Chula Vista a.s in most communities, is a principal land use, representing well over half the total land in the Citys and the real thing that gives the . community its character and quality. We have suggested three densities — three categories of residential type: ( l ) Multifamily shown by the orange color and for the most part concentrating in the older part of the ,City and most of it west of Third Avenue. Some of it, however, in and around this proposed new center in the area east of the City. This is a broad range of multiple residence facilities going all the way from 7 to 20 families per, gross acre. Seven families per. gross acre is only a fainly modest type garden . apartment development--20 families per gross acre is a fairly substantial and intensive apartment- type development. I s.hould emphasize that by the mapping technique used using colors and blocks 'like this that all ' the land colored in certain ways 'shouid be uniformly one residential type. What we are trying to suggest is that it will. probably average out at about this density and ,that this particular type of development will predominate. We do not suggest to you that it would be desirable;'. in . fact, quite the contrary--we think it would be .- undesirable — .to have great areas in the City ee— duced to one form single type development . Community will be a more interesting community,' more lively community and economically more s.uceessful with a reasonable mixture, ' not just a helter—skelter type of mixture but a mixture guided by- a good zoning ordinance and that mixture will average out in about these density categories . Me heaviest densitie-s that we forsee, we have suggested in an irregular shape linking up the two shopping centers and surrounding the . two shopping centers . This would be where the major concentration of people at 20 families per gross acre could be expected to occur . Over 7 the rest ®f. the, flat part of Chula Vista the density of somewhere between 7 to 10 families per gross acre would hardly require more than the normal continuation of ' the trend already quite observable ofa conversion of old single family dwelling lots to multiple family and fair,iy low density of .development; that ' is, one to two stories with gardens and with offstreet parking and so forth. Multipleresidence i.s more or less of a new thing in Chula Vista as this is, by far, a single family community up till now, but its relationship to San Diego, its accessibility by freeway and the general trend of building development all up and down California seem to us to point to an increase in multiple residence development in the community. This has been true in everywhere that we have ;worked; on.e can see signs of it in the Los Angeles area, San Fran— cisco area, and all across the country as far as that is concerned. Not just as it used to be in the old central cities .and around the central district but very fine and very successful parking develop— ments with gardens and swimming pools and with many amenities of finding their way , into essentially suburban communities . We don' t think there is anything wrong with this , again,, it is a very desir— able development, and we think Chula Vista needs to make provisions for it . The next population category we have indicated is called urban ( or medium) density ® that is shown on the map in yellow color and it is most of the rest 'of the older part of the city west of the inland freeway and a great 'port as well , as the new land to the east . Wherever the topography is : such that fairly intensive develop— ment can take place without excessive cutting and chopping up of the land, we haveproposed that this medium density b¢ applied. This will be marked for th.e most part by single—family residents on modest size. lots, 6 to 7000 square feet., with some duplexes and small apartments in approp-riate locations . - This , foliows a pattern already developed throughtout most of the .City today. Finally, the suburban or low density which is marked by the develop— ment now taking place in the Bonita end., Sweetwater Valley areas and which we have shown on the rougher or more difficult topography in the areas to the east . This would. be anywhere from 2 to S :families per ' acre to on¢ family per acre,. perhaps one family for 3 or 4 acres, in ertain estate .developments . Itts important for the community to .preserve some area for this kind of development because this community -i-s today is somewhat deficient in that kind of housing. The community is remarka,bl,y uniform in this development; it has neither low quality nor very mubch high quality housing but as a .very compact spe€tronaut . of the middle of the whole housing . picture as we- analyze the figures that we have been able to . gather.. There will be here an attraction OT new kinds of industry, particularly the research and development kind that a fairly high number of white .collar workers and they will be looking for places to live and will be in a position to demand rather high quality and extensive homes in. the community. I think that very quickly covers the essential recommendations of the Plan as far as land use is concerned.. All these activities taking place among the people living in the community are going to have to be served with a network of streets, freeways, and the Plan tries to make provision for this . 8 The backbone of the circulation system is a series of freeways of which we can almost think of them as being circumferential (one of them) and the other as coming through the center of the community. .The South Bay Freeway,Otay Freeway, Montgomery Freeway, InJJnd Free— way, and the San Miguel Freeway taken together provide a very excellent network and improves . the locational ddvantages of Chula Vista to a major degree. This is one of the main elements of our strong forecast for population growth for this community. Freeways, of course, cantt serve local traffic or any traffic without a local street system. To reach a house, apartment or commercial building, you have to get off the freeway and into a local street . The thing that is most concerned to you is a local street system. We have suggested a street system which to a great degree in the older part of the city reflects the street system already in existence. We have shown major arterials and secondary arterials which are hard to reach but there is a difference in the weight of line representing essentially only a slight difference in the anticipated volume or the amount of use of these highways . Running north to south, we have "E", "H", 111.11 and Orange as our major east—west routes with "J ", Naples, and Palomar as secondaries to back up those east—west connections . Out in the other than new areas, we have proposed that "E" Street at Bonita be connected in such a way that that becomes a major connection . That the "H" Street connect with the , new town center and that 111." Street connect with Telegraph Canyon Road making three major traffic routes leading from this new development area through or over or under the Inland Freeway into the older part of the community. The decision about "H" Street we recognize as being a somewhat con— troversial one; we made some studies when we finally decided on t'H1' as against "J"; either of which I must say would work; that is it wouldntt be fatal to the plan if this decision were made that "J " Is the one. However, we felt that the connection between these shopping centers would provide for a major stream of traffic and that the best and shortest service as well as to the industrial development will be provided by "H" Street, to the extent that traffic coming from other parts of the metropolitan area particularly to this big shopping area would have to make its way through local streets and then back again, you would be adding additional traffic over additional miles to the local street system and serving traffic less well than you would over a direct route. We have tried to space our major streets at half—mile intervals , not exactly so but approximately so, spacing out to wider intervals of approximately one mile as we get out of this area , reflecting a much lower density of use -out there and therefore the overall lower volume of traffic on the streets . (NEW TAPE) We suggest the relocation of the railway in connection of widening Montgomery Freeway, and this has the endorsement of the Unified Port. The Freeway can be widened without cutting into the industrial land. As to parks and Open Space, recreational areas, etc, we have tried to suggest in this area to the east of the community, the possibility of 9 retaining some of the major canyons , some of the flood plain areas , some of the ravines , etc . We think this will be a very desirable thing to do and it will have several important benefits . One, of course, it simply provides space and greenery and helps to give some form to larger development . Second, we want to provide trails and small picnic and game areas, adding to the recreational facilities ; third, providing an important storm drainage facility that wouldn ' t have to be culverted but would be allowed to follow the natural stream beds without any damage and which, to the extent that it was a running stream, would be an addition to the recreational values to that part ! ® cular area . We have suggested a park and recreational use of the shores of the reservoirs which . seems a natural and normal sort of thing. Also suggested that the right of way of the Power Company become a green belt on all or part of it due to the fact that it can ' t be built on anyway . In other parts of the State, these have been converted from visual liabilities to assets by being made an interesting green way. We suggested a different kind of recreation on the waterfront , showing a marina and boat launching facility and we understand the Port is ready to proceed with the development of that in the near future . This will provide Chula Vista with an additional recreational facility for the citizens as well as a tourist attraction of some importance . As far as we are able to discover , there is not much practicability in providing bathing facilities on this side of the Bay. It appears that the natureear--e_ of the f loon of the Bay, the i ndus tr i al use of the shore line , etc. , taken together with the very fine quality of the S i lver Strand, s imply means that tivhen people want to swim in the ocean or in the Bay, that ' s where they. would go and there wouldn ' t be much to be gained by pretending that this is a major bathing beach . It can be used for boating, and this can become a very important addition to the community . We have suggested that every school be located o.n a site large enough to provide community or neighborhood active recreational facilities . This would mean that some additional land should be added to some of the smaller school sites ; some of them are quite adequate, but neva: sites should be bought with this idea in mind so that they will have enough acreage so that the active needs of children and young adults in the neighborhood can be provided for . We have suggested a park in the Civic Center area and some parks in the older part of the city as well , and we have suggested a substantial green area around the South— western College area, thinking that this could become a major community center . We are familiar with Cabrillo College in the Santa Cruz area and with Foothill College in the Palo Alto area where Junior Colleges of this sort have become major and cultural educational centers in the community providing not only for their day and nighttime students but attracting lecturers and concerts , musical events , little theatre , and all sorts of things which add a whole new vitality to the cultural life of the City . Te feel this college can do the same for this city, thereby enriching the life of the community to a major extent . So we think that the lands and the whole environment of the College should be conducive to that kind of thing and should contain an open—air theatre and fields where various kinds of events could take place as 10 well as on the campus itself. We have shown the development to the east taking place in the rougher and more difficult topography; we have not shown it taking place in this area which, generally speaking, is more or less rougher . You may say that this doesn ' t make good sense, but one of the principles of this plan as adopted is to try to preserve, as long as possible to do so, the agricultural base of the community. This is for several reasons : it does provide jobs , it does provide income.$ it is an historic part of the community . It enhances the appearance of the community to a measurable degree .by adding to the greeness , helping to control the climate, besides being an at— tractive feature . Much of this reserve that may, before the year 1990, come into industrial use in the bottom of the Otay Valley,. should be thought of in the meantime as being in the agricultural area, and in fact , this is the finest agricultural land in the whole South Bay area, this area down here along the Bay plain . The land is level , the soil is excellent, and this is an area which ought to be preserved. Since the owners of this land have recently provided major irrigation facilities here and the land is. now in agricultural use and is sufficiently level so that it can be used for this purpose, it seems best to us to preserve it for this , and to use for residences the land not acceptable for agricultural use, but which can be used for residences . This covers what I have to say. Mr . Williams and I will be glad to answer questions if you have them or to hear your suggestions and comments about this Plan . That is the reason we are here, that ( s the. reason this prelimihary copy of the plan was published and circulated to you . Mr.. Stewart : Thank you very much, Mr . Mocine and Mr . Williams for the very fine presentation . We hope this discussion wi I I serve two purposes : : first, to advise you as to what is thought in our planning for your community in the future, and to get your comments and questions o-n it and your reaction to the plan . We would request that any comment or question that you have be made at this time . 'Mr . Ben Alsobrook from the Bonita area, representing the Sweetwater Valley Civic Association . We would like to commend the Consultants on the very excellent job in preparing the Sketch Plan . V'e would endorse it in general but we have a few questions : ( I ) The area located on Bonita Road and Otay Lakes Road is indicated as a high density area which according to the' Plan means 20 families per acre . This seems to be rather isolated and is surrounded by a much less dense area which is I to 3 per acre . Mr . Mocine : Part of the problem here comes from our over— simpli-fication of this Sketch Plan . When we group all of the multiple resi— dential together, we are forced to adopt a pretty wide range and I think in the final version of this Plan it will show this as the lower end of that multiple residence density . If, however, all the people in that general area feel that multiple residence in that part of the Valley is undesirable in any density, then of course , it can be taken i out . We suggested that perhaps because of the shopping faciIities II here , the excellent transportation here; in fact, it is down at the foot of the hills with the other lands going up behind and it might be an appropriate base for a few garden apartments , more at the 7 rather than the 20 end of that range in that particular area. Mr . Alsobrook : You will find that most of the .people in the Valley are against this high density. . Further south, perhaps , would not be so objectionable . The second thing l believe you covered in your remarks , is the fact that this is a general map but we were wondering that when the final map is prepared, whether the existing lot sizes would be shown on this map and you will work with the zoning and developments that are currently there . Another area is the Allen School Road, just south and east of Glen Abbey, already develop¢d at I acre . The Plan suggests density of 3 per acre . Could we have a transition zone here? Some consideration should be given to these "core" areas . Mr . Moeine: The Master Plan always tend to over—simplify to some extent, partly because it is trying to look ahead for a long time, and partly because if you get bogged down to details , you miss the main points . We will give your remarks very careful thought , and the zoning that we all hopefully think would reflect this map in a general sort of way, could be quite precise to protect small areas of that sort . Mr . Stewart : The Master Plan is a guide . The zoning ordinance and the " adopted zoning areas are entirely different documents . Also, before any change wi I I be made in the , zon ing or before adoption , there wi l l be formal public hearings so that these matters will be. discussed in detail . This is a general plan ; the other will be more precise . Mr . Herbert Hirsch, Bonita--Most of the area in Bonita is zoned one— half and one acre and I would lige to know how this. is shown on the map — in net or gross figures . -Mr . Williams : The net acre is an expression of the .square footage, in other words , you can get four 10,000 square foot lots in one acre . Gross acre is useful for planning purposes , especially for planning purposes in . this stage . This includes all of the types of things that are normally part of the residential area . Local streets , col — lector streets , elementary schools , shopping centers , recreation areas , etc. , are all encompassed in this gross acreage picture . Using 6,000 square foot lots , you have 42 families per gross acre, although if you divide 6 into 43, 560, you get a much larger picture . The Planners took the gross acreage for this stage because it relates to some of the newer types of development where — say — if we took the "cracker—box" houses where the lots are all the same size, lots could be made a little smaller but there would be public green belts , etc . So the gross acreage of the one kind against the land developed into lots and the other with the green belts would be the same . It takes in the local streets , elementary schools , neighborhood shopping centers , parks, etc® This in— formation we are talking about is not concerned with zoning or lot sizes 12 required in the zoning ordinance . Gross acreage is just the term used to get the general idea of the p#1opulafion being encompassed, as for example in the square miles of land and different types of uses . Lot size requirements in certain areas in terms of zoning would reflect the density shown in the general plan . But in the de— tailed plan, it might be quite different . The suburban low—density for rugged land which presumably would be the acre—lot category would be somewhere from I to 3 dwelling units per overall "area of land . The zoning ordinance might have a dozen different requirements in terms of lot sizes , for instance ; the Sketch Plan will have four or possibly five categories overall gross areas . The Sketch Plan has three; the General Plan may have four or five categories . When you explain what happens in the residential neighborhood, the gross figure generally used by Planners , is better . Mr . Mocine : One other thing we can do, Syd, since this disturbs people, is to say 6/IOths of a family to say 2 families per gross acre , or something like that instead of I ; because that is about the equivalent . One family per net acre comes out about something between 2 and I family per gross acre . Mr . Williams : The Sketch Plan very clearly explains this . Speaking of different ways to translate this , couldn ' t you for example mention the gross acreage as 42 families per acre probably equivalent to re— quirements for 6,000 square foot lots . In a square mile radius as this , you may not create the variety of lot sizes required. AvIr . Mocine : The main thing is to re—emphasize the fact that these density categories are intended to be averages . They are iniended to include things higher and lower than the stated averages we used for purposes of planning. For our purposes ,. we take an area, find out how many acres there are, multiply it by a gross acreage figure; we can approximate a number of people who might be living in that , area when it is fully developed. This gives us a measurement of what will be required there by the number of schools , park spaces , shopping center market, etc. It doesn ' t mean that every single lot there has to be the same size as the other . Some of them are going to be bigger ; some of them are going to be smaII . Perhaps the expression 'tone" should be changed to make it quite clear that we are talking about something that can go to an even lower density . Mr . Hirsch : This should be clarified on the general plan to eliminate confusion by the Planning Comnission in the future . Mr . Stewart : The zoning ordinance and lot sizes call out a specific area and I don ' t think there really should be too much confusion if a lot is called out to be 12,000 square feet or 20,000 square feet--this is net ; this has nothing to do with the streets--the streets must be excluded from that area . Talking of gross and net acres on this plan is for planning purposes whereas the zoning ordinance calls out the lot areas . 13 Mr . Carl Ruepsch, Director of Planning Services , Unified Port District: I feel that Mr . Mocine and Mr . Williams should be highly commended for this very detailed General Plan . I am particularly impressed with their preservation of the agricultural areas , the use of the more rugged lands for residential purposes and the far—sighted provision for the surplus of industrial lands in the year 1990. Every merchant knows that he must carry much more inventory to fulfill the needs of his customers and this area sadly lacks a variety of industrial sites today . eery, very limited large areas and as these areas are provided in the immediate future, we can look forward to 1990 again being an area of scarcity unless there is some far--sighted planning. We are looking forward to further discussions with Mr . Williams and Mr . Mocine in the development of the marina base which is scheduled for a very early development by the Unified Port District Tom Griffith , a resident of First Avenue : There are several of us in this area that a--re interested in the information there, and if possible, I would like to ask a few questions such as : \;'hat are the present re— quirements or your indicated requirements on major thoroughfares? - For First Avenue, E Street, what is the width, etc? Mr . Mocine : These would still be local streets --ultimately major streets would be four— lane streets , perhaps with a divided strip of some sort . We haventt worked out any detailed plans for this but simply anticipating future overall volumes of traffic, we feel the network of major arteries will be necessary, and more details will be shown in the final general plan . Mr . Griffith : Your major thoroughfares shown there would be a pattern of streets which is now current with "E" Street — 80 feet wide, with two lanes and two parking lanes . Mr . Mocine : Yes , plus perhaps a dividing strip. We haven ' t tried to distinguish on this plan between parkways and major arterials . To the greatest extent possible, we would like to see all major streets treated as parkways , if' by parkways , you mean good street tree planting, center island, this sort of thing. Mr . Griffith : \y'e don ' t have that type of parkway in mind. Our thought is our present parkway which is the strip between our curb and side— walk . \YliII this be removed to provide for a higher volume of traffic? Is that the Plan? Mr . Mocine : Well , until more precise traffic studies are made , it would not be part of the general plan . I don ' t think I could answer that question . It may very well be that some of them will have to be widened before we are finished, because we are talking about 'a city with 160,000 people as against one with about 40,000 today . Mr . Griffith : Is there any expected time for this change in this current status: of street widths ---what time in the next 27 years indi — cated? Soon, or quite distant? Any time in your knowledge or studies indicated? 14 Mr . Mocine : No, but I think 1 could precise this more by keeping careful track of what is happening to the growth of the community from now forward. What happens is when a plan like this is made, it is followed up by a program;' An actual program of 5 or 6 or 7 years in the future for accomplishing various provisions and require— ments of the plan . As you accomplish certain things , you add something to the program to keep moving ahead and this way, a few years in ad— vance , the City Council and the City Engineer and the citizens begin to realize particular projects that are coming up. That programming follows the plan; it hasn ' t been done yet and I can ' t answer your question at this time . Mr . Griffith: Isn ' t there any information in your plans as to the estimated depreciation of the values of the homes in these areas- where your major thoroughfares are projecting? Mr . Mocine : I 'm not sure that there will be any such depreciation . I think it is safe to say that if the property in this community will appreciate, that all of it will appreciate . Deeds of the community require that some things be done such as cutting streets through , widening, putting in new interchanges , etc. , which will certainly be not entirely to the Iik. ing of the people . This is always true as communities grow; especially the communities which are growing and adding on to well --established towns . Mr . Griffith : Has there been any study made of these major thorough— fares as to the recommended suggested speed as such for them? Secondary thoroughfares there? Mr . Mocine: This is not a function of the general plan but the speeds on community streets are set by the State of California . The City of Chula Vista has little 'to do with this . The State Vehicle Code estab— lishes the speed governed by the kind of uses in the surrounding pro— pert ies . Mr . Griffith : Background for these questions is the fact that roughly three months , there was a plan, an effort perhaps , to increase the speed along First Avenue from "L" through to "E" which is a portion of that area you now have as "H't to "'E" on First Avenue, and almost 100% of the people with signatures on a petition objected strongly to it becxause of the increased traffic which was considered to be detri — mental to their community for homes , kids , residential and property values . Mr . Stewart : I would like to comment here on the basis for this question; that traffic and speeds on streets is not one that has any relationship to what these gentlemen are doing. These are things that are controlled by the City Council ; the widening, of streets is occasioned by traffic pressures and these things have nothing to do with the subjects here. They are not related to any issue here pertaining to the Master Plan. Mr . Griffith: Well is there any parallelism or base that when these streets are widened in the master plan . . . . . . . 95 Mr . Stewart : Nothing to do with this at all , Sir; there is no re— lationship between the two. The increase in the width of streets is something occasioned by increased traffic volume and this is taken up by traffic department through the engineering department and the City Council . There is no indication here that First Avenue or "E" Street would bear any greater traffic than it does now, based on this plan . Mr . Paul Miller, realtor : We have now an industrial existing park on First and Main Street . It is not shown on the map. Bruce Warren : It is shown. diagrammatically on the plan as it exists . Mr . Mocine : We have a note of this and will pay attention to it . Mr . Ray Halpenny: I live on "F" Street in the high density area . First of all , I would like to add my favorable comments . - In looking at this general area here, there seems to be a reduction in the amount of com— mercial as it stands today. We have been watching the Broadway area grow, the Broadway—Hale shopping center, we have possibly envisioned there may be a trend of expansion of the commercial all the way to Third Avenue . Presently, Sears Roebuck are going' 'in east of Broadway—Hale, San Diego Trust have already obtained olpt.ions on the corner of the south— west corner of Fig and "H" Street . Can you comment possibly on whether or not you feel this amount of commercial will be sufficient to take care of the population as proposed in the next, say, 30 years? Mr . 'Mocine : Yes , we have tried to provide for a margin of safety for commercial land just as we have tried to do for industrial . - Based upon reasonable factors , for retailing of dollars per square foot and es— timating the market total retail volume available to Chula Vista from its own people and from some share of the surrounding area, we believe that there is more - than adequate I-and area shown for retail uses to take care of the needs and, as a matter of fact , we are more concerned with finding useful , practicable, reasonable -alternatives for some o'f what appears to us to be excessive retail land we have than what appears as not being enough . We can cite some interesting figures as in some parts of the City there has been a steady decline in return on retail investment in total volume of sales , etc . , indicating that the market is pretty thin for some parts of the community . We -have tried, there— fore, to suggest that the core of the whole central district of Third Avenue be backed up by a substantial amount of professional offices , real estate offices, title and trust companies and offices of that sort , but not necessarily a definite extension of retailing. We pur— posely did not Iink - this because we thought it would be better to try to concentrate here. The Sears store on the eastern part is going to go in — this has already been established here, so that already represents the ultimate development of that substantial figure of retail development . Mr . Halpenny: Therefore, you would not recommend any further expansion of commercial in or around "H" Street , in the next 20 years? Mr . Mocine : it would not be the best thing to do to expand retail 16 from this Broadway shopping center to Third Avenue . This can be built up with high—density residential to provide a market for both these shopping areas ; it would be a sounder type of development . This is our judgment . Mr . Halpenny: On the east side of the Southern Arizona Railway, north of "E " Street, we have a strip of manufacturing . This area is almost 100% improved now. I was wondering what your reasoning would be there. It is improved by trailer parks , multiple dwelling buildings and com— mercial improvements . Any access to this area would need to come through residential areas . The fact that the railroad tracks might be there should play a little significance . Mr . Mocine : It was suggested to us in developing the pian by some people and the citizens ' committees who studied this matter, that all areas north of Montgomery Freeway, all the way up and down here, be ultimately industrial . We felt that this was not necessary — that we could provide, as we have already indicated, an adequate industrial market pool without doing so as it is provided for substantial residential and should be preserved for this . It appeared to us that there is a sufficient amount of vacant land from approximately ".F " Street to the Freeway for a band about 200 feet wide and that this might be kept as a special light industrial zone . However, studying these aerial photos and land use maps — none of these things is absolutely up—to—date; it changes every day . It may be worth looking into. Mr . Charles Dibble, Acacia Street , Bonita: I have one question . It seems strange to me that in the preparation of this Master Plan so little thought is expressed in the current use of land. areas ; for example , Acacia . This one street, running north and south, is com— pletely developed down to the Otay Ranch property . These house lots are all one—half acres and some of the homes are on larger lots . %X7hy was this one street colored in on the map as suburban — number 2 on yourr map. It doesn ' t seems to me that the current use has been studied and portrayed correctly for this area . The other thing I have is a questional concerning this land — this vast amount of land on this map — this is copied from. Now what I 'm wondering is , what kind of cooperation will the City of Chula Vista in carrying out this master plan have with the County with the step—planning to assure this good coordinated plan . Mr . Stewart : I ' ll comment on that . I can state from ten year ' s ex— perience that coordination with the County and County areas has been ex— cellent . They have had cases with Chula Vista , in drawing up plans back there , and they have respected in large measure our wishes in this matter . Of course , under the State Planning Act, cities are permitted to plan beyond their boundaries so that it would stand to reason that your planning would be respected. Mr . Williams : I would like to answer his other question . The maps we were using in studying this area showed these lots as one—quarter acre . This will , however , be corrected and worked on . It is one of the reasons for this hearing. 117 Mr . Frank Phillips , Bonita: ( summation ) Questioned the routing of a major street on the east side of Glenn Abbey Cemetery through a secluded area o'f quality homes on acre sites . He suggested that it be rerouted to the west side of the cemetery to meet an existing street . Consultants agreed to study this . Mr . Paul L . Green , \X/oodlawn Park area: In your research, have you zoned the area of Otay and the Inland—Freeway for industrial ? Bruce Warren: No, it is unzoned in the County . Only one part of it is zoned . Mr . Green : What is the program schedule for the zoning of the whole blue area? Bruce �.,Yarren: Plan for 1990. Mr . %'ill ( ams : It is shown as industrial reserve--but it will be many, many years before it will go industrial . Mr. Green : Does it include Woodlawn Park? Mr . Mocine : Yes . Mr . Hugh Christensen, 680 Woodiawn Avenue, representing the Chula Vista Junior Chamber of Commerce- (middle of conversation ) Small aircraft accounts for 85"' of the focal air miles flown annually in the U . S . Small aircraft is a tremendous asset to community expansion and ex— pansion of businesses and it will be in the future . It is our request to you again that you look for some particular area that would be suitable for a close—in small aircraft site for a permanent small facility, closer than Brown Field, and that could be up—dated and modernized to attract this type of traffic . Also, we feel that "H" Street should be a primary area for convention center with hotels and motels . Mr . Williams : The thoroughfares include all visitor—type uses -- it is placed in new areas where restaurants are close to homes . Mr . Christenson : Is this advisable? Is "H" Street 'a natural for hotels and motels? We want an area where we can bid for a convention center . Also, an area for immediate developments that would enable the city to capture some of the tourism going to Tijuana . Mr . Fred Ross , representing the Civic Center Complex Committee - Perhaps you are aware that this committee has been created by the Council to take a look at the area in and around the Civic Center as per fains to the long— range future needs of the City and the need of additional lands for the use of the City . This Committee has had two meetings now and we have reached a point where we have started to talk about various properties that might be considered . The feeling of the Committee ) s thaf perhaps not too much emphasis should be made at the present time, until such fime as you have completed your downtown study and the Civic Center complex study. Could . you say when this would be presented, so that the Com— 18 m,ittee could take a look at it? Mr . Williams : We have received the very important and painstakingly prepared maps showing the buildings and every use of the buildings , and the use of the sites . So, we are now able to start doing the sketch on it . I :'would say that we would be able to have sketches on it probably in late January or early February. Manuel Kugler , Judge of the South Bay Court : I was also City Attorney for three years so am familiar with the desires of a Master Plan . I wish to commend both you gentlemen for having brought it to pass in the form of this sketch plan. As a member of the Public Facilities Comm mittee,• I do want to commend you for setting forth several places on this map, plans for parks and schools . I do want to urge that in giving consideration in the future, that we actually look forward to a com— munity center or several community centers throughout the area, which will combine with the school and the park not only daytime recreation activity but weekend outdoor recreation activity . Also an adult recreation center; we are in need of a center for adults in the evening that would be in walking distance from their homes to meet together for c discussion and games or cards , et . Concentrate these areas in a neighborhood area; this I believe you have in several places here . I thank you for your fine work . I also want to urge that some of these committees continue to work even after the master plan has come to pass . I think that citizens ' interest has been aroused through these committees ; I don ' t think their usefullness will pass after the plan is adopted. We . could make future contributions to the Planning Commission hereafter . Mr . Williams : We must emphasize the fact that the adoption of the general plan is only the beginning; the initiation in a sense of the planning . There is hardly a detail of it -that can be carried out without further study. and further work . :`Desirably, plans should initiate a full series of activities . Bringing to attention the recreation--the type you mentioned, programs based on this land, etc . If the general plan can achieve this , it becomes a living document . It may well be that some— thing similar to the citizens ' committees will be one of the ways in which this can be carried out . Mr . Don Stinson, San Diego County Road Department : This Department has asked me to extend to the City of Chula Vista encouragement and con— gratulations in developing this master plan . We recognize the need for planning in San Diego County, especially in the development of road planning, streets and highways . All of these master plan roads have been coordinated with the various cities throughout the County. 1"e recognize, and I 'm sure you recognize also, the protection of the development of the areas ; in the unincorporated areas adjacent to the City, included in your sketch plan and which will be included in the general plan, are contingent upon the direction of the County roads in the next several years . We, at this time, would like to offer our services of the road department in coordinating the development of the master plan . The road department heartily approves the plan . Mr . Stewart : Thank you for the very kind offer of the services of the 19 County Road Department . I was privileged to be present at the meeting at the San Diego Civic Center and thought it was very well done and look forward to the fine plans fo'r adoption . Mr . John Pettit , Bonita: I am looking forward to the day we can use the Bay for recreation . I have the feeling from looking at this sketch plan that we have cut ourselves off completely from *the Bay, by putting indus- trial there . I realize_ we need industrial and we ' ve got to have it; however, I am worried about cutting our recreation off because I feel we are going to need it one of these days . There are not many areas on the Bay that we can get out to enjoy and I feel that we are cutting ourselves off. completely from recreation use here. Mr . Stewart : I ' II make one remark and then I ' II ask the expert to com- ment . \Y/'e do have a large area for a marina and I do think the explanation made that the east side of the Bay is not suitable for swimming--I think some of the tests out there show that as the salt tidal moves it measures something like 10 to 20 feet in depth . I chanced to see a doctor once get up to his waist out there and he hada hard time getting out , Mr . Mocine : I think one has to look at the whole area, as the San Diego area, as a total region , thinking of different parts and the function they can serve best . Even though we ' re P11,anning here for the City , we have tried to think about the complimentary services this might to some extent give to Chula Vista . The question aboutthe airplanes also, but I think it is particularly true here, in this recreational map, it didn ' t seem to us , for the reasons that Mr . Stewart has just mentioned, and for the committments which have been made for some of this land, the plans that the Port now has and are in the process of carrying out , that major residential uses would be suitable here . Although we did want to show the residential waterfront uses and they may still be a very desirable thing although I do want to emphasize that this area, in terms of the whole City, looks like a small area . It is actually 150 acres and will be quite a substantial recreational center . Mr . Herbert Hirsch : In the past, we have had four I' ight-plane airports in this area . All we have left now is a small airport between National City and Chula Vista. I was wondering what study has bee-n given this particular airport to preserve it? Mr . 'Stewart: This belongs to National City and it is private property . According to rumors , it is only waiting for an offer before it will be closed down . Mr . Mocine : This seems to us , . at least , that airports can only properly be considered on a regional basis ; I don ' t see how a city like Chula Vista with this type of open lands that it has , can accept the responm sibility for providing an airport within its city limits . Other types of planning should be going on ; I hope ,they are going on . The County Planning Commission is thinking about certain over-all needs , and if they are not thinking about air needs, they should be . We haven ' t thought in our work ,-, that an airport was what you would call a city-facility, and we didn ' t give it much consideration . 20 Mr . Hirsch: National City has just proposed extending Fifth Avenue through to Chula Vista and I understand that this city has declined to go along with National City. Is there any indication here that they will extend Fifth Avenue across to "D" Street in National City? Mr . Stewart : I am of the opinion that this has been discussed with the City Council of National City and this will require the expenditure of public funds that has to do with the over—all street pattern and the need for additional traffic capacity . The Engineering Department would have to be the one to comment on that . It wouldn ' t concern the master plan ; if the present capacity going north and south is not adequate, it might be a need for it , but this will have to be shown by a study.. In the recent presentation of the Civic Center , I purposely looked for this road and if was not on the County map, Mr . Hirschy I understand funds have been set aside for a First Avenue extension . Mir . Stewart : They have been withdrawn, I understand. Mr . Hirsch : Ext—of First Avenue to the new 280 Freeway should be considered. Mr . John Pettit : I would like to see the high—density area done away with at the intersection of Bonita Road and Otay Lakes Road. I think it will be a sore thumb sticking right out in the middle of our Valleys `/e would rather have commercial zoning here, rather than high density, high rise apartments . Mr . Christenson : I want to comment here that I don ' t fly, but from the literature that has come to us from the State, I would be happy to fur— nish you with any information pertaining to this , but the future of small —craft aviation is extremely progressive , and in the next- few years , we can expect to have a big influx of this . There is no basic plan in the entire area, to my knowledge, and I am not speaking just of Chula Vista, Ipm speaking of the entire area for small strictly privately— owned airplanes , I 'm talking about pasture—type aircraft . It has been shown to me that this 'is a highly economical value on the entire com— munity. Mr . Stewart: Has your group contacted the County and the aviation people to see about their plans for the County area? Mr . Christenson : No, we attended the meeting with the Chamber of Commerce where they discussed the Brown Field operation but there was no indication at that time that there was any plan and as Mr . Hirsch mentioned, there have been four airports and we are now having another one taken away from us in the immediate future with no prospects of building a new one . Mr . Stewart : F would like to suggest that the Junior Chamber of Commerce check with the County Aviation to see what their planning is . Also suggest a study be made of the distances from centers of population as related to active airports . I do not think airports should be located 21 closely to populated areas , where the flight patterns involve residences . Mr . Christenson : I 'm just looking for a site which we can preserve, possibly in the southern border or the Sweetwater Valley area. Mr . Ray Halpenny: We ' re in the midst of spending a lot of money, I think close to a million dollars , for a central complex, here which embodies extensive park facilities . In your study, you also recon,0— mended several small parks . What would be used more in the central part of the city, perhaps a half—dozen small parks or one large park.? Mr . Mocine : I think it is hard to answer the question on this subject because large parks and small parks serve different needs and one doesn ' t usually substitute with the other . In the central part of the city, to my knowledge, there is not an area big enough, unless you tear down houses , to make what I would call a large park . . . . .40 or 50 acres or more . Therefore the parks in the central part of the city will have to be smaller or more intensively used kind. These will be complimented by larger parks , or open—air parks in the newer areas . Mr. Halpenny: Specifically, I was questioning whether we should have say one park of 25 acres or 6 or 7 three or four acresm Mr . Wi I I iams : Recreation people have set five acres for a useful neighborhood park . We have proposed in the plan at this stage a number of possible locations- for small parks . Mr . Stewart : We as a community are unique as far as parks and play— grounds are concerned. I definity feel that public playgrounds should be maintained at the school . In Los Angeles and Riverside, in the warmer areas , people do tend to get out more and use the facilities more than people do here . Here, where we have so many of the features available within easy reach of us , you canft say that Chula Vista can be compared to any other city, because we do have the mountains and seashore and a lot of beaches available . Mr . Hirsch : You say you approve of using the school facilities . This has been tried in the past and the people who play tennis will not use your mu I t i —purpose tour ts . Mr . Stewart: This isn ' t what I intended to convey; I think there should be playgrounds adjacent to schools . I didn '-t say school play grounds for pub I i c use. Mr . Halpenny: My thought in considering a park would not necessarily be a playground but we are getting in the high—density area quite a concentration now of elderly citizens and they are of the higher caliber. I ' m thinking specifically of the mobile home parks ; these people are first—class citizens . They don ' t depend on local employment; they are retired people; well —to—do and bring a lot of money into this area . We should be thinking of some place for them within walking distance , if nothing else to walk their dog or to sit on a park bench . They are not 22 going to play ball —merely as a beauty spot and a place for relaxation . Mr . Hirsch: In a subdivision of Bonita ( Bel —Aire ) they have cut the terrain out of some beautiful hills . Is anything being done to hinder any more of that type of development? To preserve the natural terrain of the Valley and the hills . Would this plan provide protection against this ? Mr . Stewart : We hope this plan is going to help it. Mr . Mocine: We have tried to reflect a concern for that sort of thing, we have tried to propose development to the topography in that area . That ' s about as much as the general plan can say about it. We have mentioned the need to control carefully and regulate this kind of grading, and this is one of the important points of one of our basic objectives .. We have tried to make the policy of the City clear, or wi l I be clear if the Council adopts this plan . That policy., however, can only be im— plemented by a good grading ordinance, careful regulations written into the subdivision ordinance and we will be helping the City to write this ordinance . The general plan can only suggest that this is an important area of concern ; the ordinances actually have to have their teeth in t hem. Mr . Hirsch : What happened to the "J" Street off—ramp? Mr . Stewart : This is not on the plan because it has to do with the Highway Department . Bruce Warren : Freeway agreement has been signed. Does the freeway agreement provide for a ramp on " J" Street ( question directed at Mr . Stinson--road department ) ? Mr. Stinson : Not positive, but I believe the agreement indicates' a ramp at "J" Street interchange . Mr . Stewart : Thank Mr . Mocine and Mr . V/'ilIiams for their fine pre— sentation. We appreciate your interest in your Master Plan and hope you ' ll keep up the interest in the future . We thank you very much for coming.